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The Shroud Underground
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writerjohnb
Initiate
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Chesapeake, VA
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 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Damnation, Tim, you should have taken me to task for my story in Beneath the Surface. There's a missing word (on) and a punctuation error!
I hope you have gone over the blowhard's rejection for typos. He needs to be brought down a peg or two. From what I've seen, there are enough unwittingly rotten writers submitting that he should vent his spleen on.
Take care,
JohnB
_________________
http://www.johnbushore.com
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Nathaniel Lambert
Grand Master
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Tropical, North Dakota
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| shroud wrote: |
My latest rejection, and while it is definitely not the worst I have received, the editor's insistence that the manuscript be "mechanically perfect" subverts the artistic integrity of the craft.
I agree that if a submission is rife with grammatical or punctuation errors than it may not be suitable for publication, AND as an editor I have no excuse for these errors.
However, torpedoing my submission on the basis of two very minor errors seems pompous and elitist to me. I run ALL of my accepted Shroud submissions through a copyeditor, and even the best of writers slip up from time-to-time, but the quality of the story shines through.
Here was the rejection:
"This is an old school editor here.
If you're a writer, you've got the mechanics down, okay?
I demand that manuscripts be virtually perfect mechanically if they are to be given serious consideration.
There's no way around it: A writer must be a master of the basics.
Get the best "write it right" book there is, Strunk and White's The Elements of Style.
Then, follow the rule all pro writers do: When in doubt, look it up.
Best,
XXX"
At least it was not a form response though.
And I think I have a problem with the the statement that begins with "I demand..." Is this the kind of relationship this editor wants with writers? It just sounds a bit adversarial to me.
Thoughts? |
You ever hear how terrible some of Hemingway's work turned out? I guess he was one of the worst spellers out there.
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Natalie L. Sin
Disciple
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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What a wanker 
I think a lot of writers mess up grammar now and then. I have incredibly biased eyes over my own work and even when I run it by my "editor" some still sneak through. Asking for literal perfection is a high bar and seems more likely to turn off talented writers from submitting rather than encourage them.
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Nathaniel Lambert
Grand Master
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Tropical, North Dakota
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm just going to champion this thread, 'cause my grammar is down right awful!
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John P. Wilson
Disciple
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Being an old school editor myself,
I also find it impearuhtive fo you to have good grammer. If you won't to write rite, then you should get Wild Turkey. That's a damn smooth teacha. You no what? I demand you get Wild Turkey.
(Note, I'm drinking Wild Turkey and this message will probably disappear as soon as I sober up and remember that it's here. I think it's reasonable for an editor to want a manuscript that is readable and lacks obvious problems like a comma after every word. But an editor who demands perfection and passes on a great story because of a couple of typos--well, I wouldn't want to read that magazine).
_________________
"You feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?"
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Natalie L. Sin
Disciple
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| John P. Wilson wrote: |
Being an old school editor myself,
I also find it impearuhtive fo you to have good grammer. If you won't to write rite, then you should get Wild Turkey. That's a damn smooth teacha. You no what? I demand you get Wild Turkey.
(Note, I'm drinking Wild Turkey and this message will probably disappear as soon as I sober up and remember that it's here. I think it's reasonable for an editor to want a manuscript that is readable and lacks obvious problems like a comma after every word. But an editor who demands perfection and passes on a great story because of a couple of typos--well, I wouldn't want to read that magazine). |
I'm with you and your drunken ramblings! 
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shroud
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Milton, NH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| John P. Wilson wrote: |
Being an old school editor myself,
I also find it impearuhtive fo you to have good grammer. If you won't to write rite, then you should get Wild Turkey. That's a damn smooth teacha. You no what? I demand you get Wild Turkey.
(Note, I'm drinking Wild Turkey and this message will probably disappear as soon as I sober up and remember that it's here. I think it's reasonable for an editor to want a manuscript that is readable and lacks obvious problems like a comma after every word. But an editor who demands perfection and passes on a great story because of a couple of typos--well, I wouldn't want to read that magazine). |
Wild Turkey or not, I appreciate the support. 
Please, don't get me wrong, this particular unnamed editor is well-known and well-respected in the field, so my intent is not to criticize him as a person.
Instead, I just want to make the point that I think that the best thing we can do as editors and publishers is to foster close and supportive relationships among writers of every level. As editors, we are not here to serve as English 101 teachers, nor are we here to serve ourselves and our pet "demands."
We are here to build communities around our publications so that everyone benefits: reader, writer, editor.
Let's face it too, from a business standpoint, most of my subscribers are writers too!
It makes a bad business decision to treat writers like illiterate hacks simply because of a couple of typos.
'nuff said. Thanks all.
Tim
_________________
Tim Deal
Editor & Publisher
Shroud Magazine
The Journal of Dark Fiction and Art
http://www.shroudmagazine.com
http://www.myspace.com/shroudmag
1-800-796-3759
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Scott
Acolyte
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Hudson Vally, NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Well, this one takes the cake. I have litarally thousands of rejections under my belt (two draws full, and more in boxes stowed away). This one really got under my skin:
| Quote: |
Scott,
Thanks for sending 'Suzy Q", but I made it four pages into a nine-page
manuscript and all I got was some half-decent imagery and a load of
cryptic buildup to... something. There needs to be an immediate 'grab,'
something to get the reader's attention and hold it.
Regards,
--L.
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In nearly twenty years of submitting work, I have never responded in anger or negatively to even the worst of rejections. I'm insanely averse (to the point of near-fanaticism) to burning any bridges. Not sure what came over me, but to this one I replied:
| Quote: |
The "something" was probably somewhere around page 9.  Thanks for the feedback!
--Scott
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_________________
--Scott
www.myspace.com/sardy
www.apocalypsefiction.com
Last edited by Scott on Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John P. Wilson
Disciple
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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That's a bummer man. I hate rejections like that. Why would an editor tell a writer he couldn't get past page four of a nine page manuscript? What the hell is the point in that other than to insult? He could have just said he felt it needed an attention grabber at the beginning and left it at that. That sucks. I like your reply to him. It wasn't inappropriate considering the message he sent you. I don't think you burnt a bridge with that message.
_________________
"You feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?"
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Steve Vernon
Initiate
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Worst rejection?
"Let's just be friends..." 
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Nathaniel Lambert
Grand Master
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Tropical, North Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Vernon wrote: |
Worst rejection?
"Let's just be friends..." |
HA!
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Shaun Jeffrey
Initiate
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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While not classed as a bad rejection, I did have someone complain that my story was littered with spelling mistakes, which it wasn't. It was just that I write in English U.K. and this particular market was in the U.S. so I take it they were on about the differences in spelling that arise in these situations.
_________________
http://www.shaunjeffrey.com
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lcrisler
Initiate
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Well, I came on the forum initially because one of my pieces is being held for consideration as part of Abominations, and I come across a rejection letter I wrote in this thread. I feel oddly flattered. Odd indeed.
I am not the most tactful dude in the world, but my comments are always meant to help. When I first started sending work out a couple years ago, I had the dubious luck of submitting to and getting rejected by a couple of seriously hardass editors who sent me insightful, helpful emails that I learned a lot from.
Because of the influence those rejections had on me and my work, I've decided to always speak my mind as an editor, just in case I'm the only honest critic that story gets. I HATE when I post a story in my writer's workshop or send it out to an editor and get a form letter or a simple 'Yeah Man This Rocks!'
To date the only form letters I've ever sent out are to writers (term used loosely) who've seriously douched it up. If I can't at least be constructive with the criticism, that's when I play the "Dear Writer, This doesn't meet our needs at this time..." card.
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christammiller
Acolyte
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Some places are like people: some shine and some don't.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| lcrisler wrote: |
| I am not the most tactful dude in the world, but my comments are always meant to help. When I first started sending work out a couple years ago, I had the dubious luck of submitting to and getting rejected by a couple of seriously hardass editors who sent me insightful, helpful emails that I learned a lot from. |
Someone once told me that she wouldn't be so "destructive" (my word) if she didn't think my work had merit and couldn't be improved. It was a seriously backhanded compliment because she was just so mean. I took a lesson from her and try to tell authors what they did right as well as what they did wrong. To encourage them to improve rather than assume they know that if I didn't trash it, it must be fine.
_________________
Christa M. Miller
Assistant Editor, Shroud Magazine
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Scott
Acolyte
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 22
Location: Hudson Vally, NY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| lcrisler wrote: |
Well, I came on the forum initially because one of my pieces is being held for consideration as part of Abominations, and I come across a rejection letter I wrote in this thread. I feel oddly flattered. Odd indeed.
I am not the most tactful dude in the world, but my comments are always meant to help. When I first started sending work out a couple years ago, I had the dubious luck of submitting to and getting rejected by a couple of seriously hardass editors who sent me insightful, helpful emails that I learned a lot from.
Because of the influence those rejections had on me and my work, I've decided to always speak my mind as an editor, just in case I'm the only honest critic that story gets. I HATE when I post a story in my writer's workshop or send it out to an editor and get a form letter or a simple 'Yeah Man This Rocks!'
To date the only form letters I've ever sent out are to writers (term used loosely) who've seriously douched it up. If I can't at least be constructive with the criticism, that's when I play the "Dear Writer, This doesn't meet our needs at this time..." card. |
Hi L.--
I really appreciate your coming on here and taking credit for your rejection letter. Your points have merit, and I think that what is the most disturbing is your admission to not finishing a 9-pg. manuscript (the manuscript was actually only 7 pgs, by the way, and double-spaced at that!) - especially after stating that you recognized a build-up in dramatic tension leading to "something." It's hard to consider criticism to be constructive when the critic hasn't read the piece. As for "half-decent imagery", well I guess that can be taken either way---depends on whether you're a half-empty or half-full kinda guy... but I do fail to see how a comment like that can be constructive?
In any case, I applaud your coming on here and welcome you to the Shroud Writers Community---we've got a great bunch here! It's certainly not my intention to argue my story's merit in your publication---after all, it's YOURS And if you hated my story, you hated it, and nothing's gonna change that! Like I said, I've been submitting for a looong time and have built up quite a thick skin!
Looking forward to submitting to you again in the future!!
--Scott
_________________
--Scott
www.myspace.com/sardy
www.apocalypsefiction.com
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