The Shroud Underground

I have a two part question.

1st: Is there a difference between Horror and Dark fiction?

Even on HWA's myspace page they say dark fiction, so id there a difference or are they synonymous?

2nd: Do you think a story can be classified as Horror (or DF depending on the above) and have an if not particularly happy ending, at least have good win over evil or the protagonist live?

rsmccoy wrote:I have a two part question.

1st: Is there a difference between Horror and Dark fiction?

Even on HWA's myspace page they say dark fiction, so id there a difference or are they synonymous?

2nd: Do you think a story can be classified as Horror (or DF depending on the above) and have an if not particularly happy ending, at least have good win over evil or the protagonist live?

EXCELLENT questions...

1. I see "Dark Fiction" as a broader category that may encompass horror, noir, dark fantasy, etc. However, if seen as a separate category, I would hazard to say that it is mainstream (non-speculative) fiction with a grim, foreboding, or pessimistic theme.

2. I would opine "YES!" and, in fact, that remains my favorite kind of horror story. The whole reason I fell in love with this genre is because of the recurring good vs. evil theme; and who doesn't love a happy(ish) ending?

T.

I like happy endings, or at least some kind of closure.

Great topic!

I would say that "Horror" would tend to have a fantastic or supernatural (or even speculative scifi) element to it, whereas dark fiction could presumably take place in the "real" world... I think of Stephen King as usually writing "horror," and Chuck Palahniuk as writing "dark fiction"... just my two cents. And of course, our writing is all about breaking down any preconceived notions or boundaries of what is "real" and what's not... Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series, in my opinion, is a groundbreaking example of this...

While I don't really touch on "horror" I did recently write an essay for my writer's group on the craft of "dark fiction"... I'm on my way out the door, but will post it later today!

Happy ending is good, even if it isn't exactly kittens and rainbows. Makes it more shocking when someone does go the route of an all out tragic ending! (a la Pet Sematary).

SPOILER ALERT: This reply discusses the plots of "A Rose for Emily" and "The Metamorphosis." Please don't go any further if interested in reading these stories.

Tough questions.

I think there is a small line between the two. I agree with Tim's opinion, it is a cross genre and has a more mainstream quality.

"A Rose for Emily" is about a woman who dies and the townsfolk find out she's been sleeping with the corpse of a man she killed years and years ago. Sounds like horror, but most consider it literature, even Southern Gothic. It's dark fiction because the story's emphasis is the theme of times changing, the old South is no more and a new South is emerging. Emily's family has died out, and they were the most important citizens in the community. Because of his constant refferal to decay and death, lots of people tend to look past the plot and straight at the theme. The plot is certainly horror, but the focus of the story isn't on plot.

Kafka's "Metamorphisis" involves a man who wakes up one morning and is a cockroach. Now, the plot is 100% horror. A giant cockroach right? But, instead of focusing on the roach as a monster, Kafka focuses on the human condition. man as monster. His family cannot accept him as a cockroach, so they torture him. But, the story involves the roach's exploration of his feelings and doesn't focus on the torture throughout. Many consider this dark fiction because theme is more dominant than plot.

I'm not sure if that makes sense really. It's a truly mind blowing question. Also, fantasy with horror elements, romance with horror elements, speculative fiction, all of these I would consider dark fiction if the set up of the tale isn't primarily horrific. And by horrorific I mean something dealing with the senses to provoke fear. Atmosphere. If the story's intent is mainly to frighten or deeply disturb...that's horror.

For example: Look at Silence of the Lambs v.s. No Country for Old Men. Both deal with serial killers. But one deals more with theme than the other. One deals more with gore and is meant to disturb. Both are great novels, but only one is horror and only one is dark fiction.

As for the second question, in my opinion it's okay for either to have a happy ending.

In my eyes, it's like this.

Horror is a box with a few holes in it, and horror stories are blue marbles. But sometimes the marbles will fall out. Thankfully, the Horror box is in an even bigger box labeled "dark fiction". Next to the horror box is a box labeled Sci-fi, and next to that a box labeled thriller, and so on and so forth. But all the boxes have holes, and some marbles will slip out and mix up with the red marbles from the thriller box, or the green marbles from the sci-fi box. But they're all safely kept in the Dark Fiction box so you don't have to worry about them getting lost in your closet.



Is that overly complicated? That happens to me sometimes...

For some reason your analogy reminds me of statistics class. What is the probability of pulling out a green horror marble?

It's better than the chance of pulling out a dark-sci-fi marble, or a dark-romance marble (thank god) or a dark comedy marble because just about all horror marbles get put into the dark fiction box, whereas only a portion of the sci-fi, comedy, romance, and other marbles go into the dark fiction box.

1. I'd agree with others, and say dark fiction can be a much broader than horror - things like dark fantasy (King's Dark Tower series), the old Brothers Grimm fairy tales, even the original short story version of "Stand By Me","The Body", was pretty dark. I'd say that's what I write most of the time.

2. Let's be honest - sometimes, it's a guilty pleasure to see the bad guy get away with it, (like "The Cape" in Joe Hill's 20th Century Ghosts), but at some point - good's gotta win, but it often isn't pretty when they do. Brian Keene does this a lot, especially with the ending of Ghoul.

I always used Clive Barker as the example of the division between these two titles because he writes both so well.

For instance: The Hell bound Heart and nearly every story in his Books of Blood are pretty standard horror tales. His later writing, particularly when he took up a love for the novel format, was mostly dark fiction: Imajica, Sacrament, Galilee, etc.

Horror has lots of shock and awe. Gore is more prevalent. Most of the monsters are either traditional staples or remakes of those staples to some degree.

Dark fiction, to me, is a bit more on the tangible side of things. The monsters aren't as easy to pin down, the characters aren't so extreme.